Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 28, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Although an energy-based run buff is all you get, my position is that that is a non-trivial difference, and I imagine that is the main point of contention I'd have with most people here. It's the core stancing/KD setup that the bar is built upon, and the most efficient / best one for a flexible splittable template. And indeed, it's a sacrifice, because bull's strike and rush are simply the best skills for what they do.

What is important to clarify is that the popular (run almost exclusively) rush-based warriors are not flexible splittable templates. Triple stance bars take up too much space and don't allow for self-survivability. Although any warrior can split away from monks with some level of effect, they are restricted in usefulness to more specific situations.

I'm not sure how you can argue that the template you posted is more flexible than a Shock Axe. It sacrifices flagstand power completely in favor of an energy speed buff and a couple defense skills, one of which (Healsig) is so terrible that by the time you need to use it, you've probably lost whatever skirmish you were in.

Disciplined Stance has its uses at times. It gives you a free win in 2v2 (assuming it's your warrior + ranger vs theirs), and it makes it easier to push on flaggers without dying. I don't think it helps the character all that much overall, because 2v2s are so rare in the current GvG climate. Good teams will almost always split off their flagger long enough to wipe you, having a midline character run the flag as necessary. Once a skirmish becomes 3v3, Disciplined Stance loses a lot of its usefulness because they'll be putting their damage on your healer while your warrior eats Cripshots and degen.

Specifically what plays are you making with that Bull's Charge guy that makes you think he's more flexible than a standard axe bar? I can see delaying a flagger by pushing on him, but you're not going to kill someone competent that way. If you're splitting into their base, you should be taking a healer, which makes those defensive skills much less important. I don't understand what you can do with him that makes it worth crippling yourself in 8v8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The standard triple-stance axe bar is: evis/BB/d-chop/bulls/frenzy/rush/enraging/d-pact, with 14/14 axe/str. Are you talking about dchop vs. enraging on a shock bar?

I was referring to a Shock bar, but the points about Enraging apply to the bar you listed as well. I'm loathe to take Shock off my bar if I can help it, as it's both an incredibly powerful flagstand interrupt/KD, and an awesome skirmish skill. 6s KDs are incredibly important for taking out healers in skirmish environments, and the disruption Shock can provide at the flagstand is impressive if used properly.

Certainly, I would argue that having a six second KD in skirmish makes your warrior much scarier than having a Heal Sig.

ashes · Dec 28, 2007, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Hi again

Nice to see that so many have join the chat. I've read "Pressure for Tykes", which i guess u all know, and i think we should maybe take "The basic axe template" in use.

Evis, Exec, Bull's, Frenzy, Rush, Ress

This is the 6 basicskills in a axe bar according to chiizu, although i see ress as a "jokerspot" in the bar.

So my idea was that people could add there variation of the build, with a comment on why there idea is the best for a spittable/anti-ganking 2nd warrior.

Remember the criterias:

Be able to spike with the team.
Be able to kill a target alone.
Speed Boost. (Which is a big problem, because im addicted to rush, but he want me to use an energy speed boost, so im able to run around without adrenaline...)
Have selfheal/survivability

It's totally ok, if u dont fill all the criterias but then just leave a comment, so i got something to argue with

It have turned into a very interresting thread - Keep on the good work guys.

Ty very much so far

Ash..

BTW ill give my leader a link to this thread today, maybe he'll join us.

Greedy Gus · Dec 29, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I'm not sure how you can argue that the template you posted is more flexible than a Shock Axe.

There may be some terminology confusion. I'm trying to refer to flexible splitting, opposed to simply splitting to a specific goal where the situation is favorably controlled. In the latter, your effectiveness is often primarily being a third body in a skirmish, or being a vessel for damage against a criplocked straggler. In the former, the idea is more along the lines of freedom of movement with a bigger focus on proactively 'trying shit' to change the flow of the game, with a much higher degree of improvisation. Having tools like self-defense and self-healing are very useful in the flexible split playstle, but not necessary (and often counter-productive) in the more reactive/control oriented skirmishes/'plays'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Specifically what plays are you making with that Bull's Charge guy that makes you think he's more flexible than a standard axe bar?

If you're splitting into their base, you should be taking a healer, which makes those defensive skills much less important.

This is probably a good quote to outline the disconnect in views on flexibility.

I tend to envy your ability to articulate how things are and the way they work, Squidget, but I think more often than not you aren't interested in a broader view of the picture, and wish you'd choose to extend your scope beyond the status quo in your foruming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I don't understand what you can do with him that makes it worth crippling yourself in 8v8.

I think this kind of hyperbolic reasoning has permeated pvp for the last year or so, and hasn't really been that healthy. Choosing to run more tools on a bar rather than min-maxing for an 8v8 slugfest can be a sacrifice, but surely not all cases are "crippling yourself". In this instance, having sever/gash/final, good to strong KD power (capable of being chained), enough stancing to bust adren well, and a strong reactive interrupt (perfect for huge quarterbreaking damage) is a perfectly fine 8v8 warrior bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I was referring to a Shock bar, but the points about Enraging apply to the bar you listed as well. I'm loathe to take Shock off my bar if I can help it, as it's both an incredibly powerful flagstand interrupt/KD, and an awesome skirmish skill. 6s KDs are incredibly important for taking out healers in skirmish environments, and the disruption Shock can provide at the flagstand is impressive if used properly.

I imagine I'm equally turned off by using an axe bar without interrupts. Unless just looking for a pure spiker, I would just about always choose to run hammer instead of a triple stance axe with bulls & shock. Especially because I would be forced to sacrifice energy armor or powering enraging with major str to avoid being on a HP total I'm not comfortable with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Certainly, I would argue that having a six second KD in skirmish makes your warrior much scarier than having a Heal Sig.

Certainly healsig isn't there to make the guy scary in a skirmish. Self-healing on a warrior is primarily to afford more freedom in playstyle, from going to pick off NPCs, extending the length of pushing 2v2, not getting eaten by WoR spam & ancestors, etc. Post-nightfall, skirmish play is dictated by ranger interrupts instead of revolving around blinding flash, and healsig just needs a defensive stance to keep up now (which some templates already want, like bulls charge). In this instance, the effectiveness of disciplined stance and healsig are greater than the sum of their parts, and you're missing the idea to judge them seperately.

Ec]-[oMaN · Dec 29, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Ashes it would be nice if you could tell us what team build your guild is using atm. Other than that I'd just recommend using a standard shock axe war with d chop,rush,bulls. You have multiple snares/kds/interrupts and still the best template for spiking 8v8. Everything else is reliant on other factors team build/enemy build or things that come up or change during the game.

ashes · Dec 29, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Well we change build A LOT, so it's kinda hard for me to give u a clear picture of out build, but:

We normally have a Hammer warrior with Devastating and Death pact

2nd War

Mesmer: eSurge, eBurn, pLeak, Shatter ench, Lyssa's Balance, pDrain, Diversion, Res Chant

This is where we change the most, these two spots can be ele's, necro's, rt, para - you name it.

2 x Monks (I guess its Restore and WoH atm not sure)

Runner: Normally a Rt/D - with some splinter and ancestor's for flagstand support

TheOneMephisto · Dec 29, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Gus, if you're offensively splitting with that bar you probably aren't going to get much done, as I doubt that you can solo-kill a rit without support and splitting solo will probably just get you criplocked by a cripshot and killed. I still really doubt the flexibility that it gives you, as I may be theorycrafting, but if you want to get anything done you're going to need support, and if you have the support already why don't you just min/max your build to take advantage of that?

Ec]-[oMaN · Dec 29, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Ask your guildies if they would consider putting a HARD snare somewhere in the build, this makes either splitting into bases easier or stopping splits, or plain out beating on splits while they try to run out of your base, scoring kills is important. You can always use a cripshot with sloth and still have spike dmg, which means bring a ward on your mes, or you can run icey shackles rit Rt/E, or even a siphon speed Rt/A. You really don't want to have splits moving where ever or when ever they want, and using just a split warrior to snare things won't accomplish much. Doing this overall will help greatly, then you can still use your warrior as is with the skills you want, no gimping needed.

Greedy Gus · Dec 29, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Gus, if you're offensively splitting with that bar you probably aren't going to get much done, as I doubt that you can solo-kill a rit without support and splitting solo will probably just get you criplocked by a cripshot and killed. I still really doubt the flexibility that it gives you, as I may be theorycrafting, but if you want to get anything done you're going to need support, and if you have the support already why don't you just min/max your build to take advantage of that?

First of all it certainly can solo-kill a rit, you just need patience and the ability to see a window of opportunity and capitalize on it. As far as getting something done, a lot comes with experience and reading the match. There are plenty of opportunities in each game to accomplish things based on timing of flag running, coordinating with teammates for splitting in multiple directions, etc. Some times you'll see others complain about people just "running around", because they're not trying to execute any particular 'play' but are trying to look for any positional or tactical mistakes to capitalize on. Of course it also depends on teammates support (ranger & warrior coming after you should mean getting your own support), and map (druids, imperial, & frozen are great for offensive splitting around).

If you're running a build that provides the tools to gain advantages 1v1, 2v2, or small windows alone in the enemy base, but loses the advantage in 3v3 skirmishes (healer present), then you aim to play to your strengths. As far as getting things done the best with support, the idea is still about having extra options at your disposal. As with any case, if you aren't interested in utilizing extra tools, there is no reason to sacrifice away from the min/max setup for them.

ashes · Dec 29, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

I think we should maybe take "The basic axe template" in use.

Evis, Exec, Bull's, Frenzy, Rush, Ress

This is the 6 basicskills in a axe bar according to chiizu, although i see ress as a "jokerspot" in the bar.

So my idea was that people could add there variation of the build, with a comment on why there idea is the best for a spittable/anti-ganking 2nd warrior.

Ash

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 29, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Picking and choosing a bit...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

There may be some terminology confusion. I'm trying to refer to flexible splitting, opposed to simply splitting to a specific goal where the situation is favorably controlled. In the latter, your effectiveness is often primarily being a third body in a skirmish, or being a vessel for damage against a criplocked straggler. In the former, the idea is more along the lines of freedom of movement with a bigger focus on proactively 'trying shit' to change the flow of the game, with a much higher degree of improvisation. Having tools like self-defense and self-healing are very useful in the flexible split playstle, but not necessary (and often counter-productive) in the more reactive/control oriented skirmishes/'plays'.

I completely understand the playstyle you're talking about. It was a favorite months ago, when snares were relatively weak, flaggers had less healing on their bars. Mending Touch guys could run all over the map freely to cause havoc, and there really wasn't a whole lot the other team could do about it. These days, you still see the playstyle having moderate success by teams like RIP.

That sort of bar (not yours specifically, but bars like it) can be one of my favorite to play against bad or medicore teams. Seeing their opponents scattering around the map, chasing flaggers and splitting without any particular plan will throw bad players into confusion. From there, it isn't long before they make a mistake that you can capitalize on. That said, whenever I've been stuck on a bar full of defensive skills against a competent team, their defense stops screwing up and the good things about the bar largely disappear. You find yourself wishing you had the power to kill through a healer, and the defensive skills are less useful because you end up needing a healing of your own to make a push on their base that doesn't get you killed.

Good teams aren't going to let a warrior get any significant amount of time unattended in their base. They're not going to let you run around solo and cause havoc. Against a coordinated team, making any kind of a serious push on the base means going through a Cripshot and a healer, and going through a Cripshot means getting support.

It's not a state of affairs I particularly like. I enjoyed playing warrior more when you could run freely around the map to cause trouble, and I still play that way if the other team doesn't have the coordination or the tools to deal with it. But that's not the style that I believe beats the top teams right now, and I prefer not to run bars that get worse as the enemy team gets better.

I will readily agree that there are a lot of teams that can't cope with dynamic splitting (as evidenced by the success of RIP.) I'm sure other teams taking up that style could beat a lot of people. If that's all you want to do, there's no particular reason not to run a defensive warrior bar and have all your guys run around the map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I imagine I'm equally turned off by using an axe bar without interrupts. Unless just looking for a pure spiker, I would just about always choose to run hammer instead of a triple stance axe with bulls & shock. Especially because I would be forced to sacrifice energy armor or powering enraging with major str to avoid being on a HP total I'm not comfortable with.

I think you play with Shock very differently than I do if you don't consider it an interrupt. The activation time is slightly shorter than frenzied D-chop, and it has the additional advantage of going through Blocks and Blinds (useful in this meta.) Shocking down Aegises is a no-brainer, and you can hit Wards with a bit of prediction.

D-chop is cheaper than Shock, and its 20 second disable is great for taking out spammable skills like B-surge, Cripshot, WoH, or Guardian. That said, if I can only take one of the two for some reason, I'll almost always choose Shock over D-chop on an axe bar, because the skill is so much more flexible. At the stand, it's a serviceable interrupt, a second KD, and a great way to cause pressure. On the split it's what allows you to force kills on healers through long KD chains, and it will mitigate more damage than Heal Sig if used appropriately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

it certainly can solo-kill a rit, you just need patience and the ability to see a window of opportunity and capitalize on it.

The rit would need to be pretty incompetent to die to a warrior on that bar. You've got a single conditional KD, and one interrupt on a 15s recharge (assuming you don't take a res sig.) A lot of teams do put their least competent player on the flagrunner, but again, it feels like you're relying on the opponent screwing up pretty badly. In that situation, a competent flagger is just going to Warding himself, then call for a ranger and warrior to come back, snare you, and kill you.

Bull's Charge can be a great delaying mechanism, but that's not a bar I'd take if I wanted to solo competent flaggers in a reasonable amount of time.

ashes · Dec 29, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Well if i'd ran a bull's charge warrior, i dont think i would be able to do much harm on a Rt/D runner. Weapon of Warding is a f**ker and just the fact that bull's charge gives u 25% increased movement speed, and pious haste give u 33%, should be enought to drop the idea imo.

Gneppe · Dec 29, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Hey Ash

So Firesoul/Leader wants you to be selfsurviving...
Why? Dont you have a rit to support you if you are splitting.?
I see his point in the energy-stance, but it shouldn't be necessary.
Imo the 2nd warrior is gd enough with the standard shock bar.
Basicly its all just based on opinion.
The most important thing is how good the player is.

ashes · Dec 29, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gneppe

The most important thing is how good the player is.

Arhh then it should'nt be a problem ;D - ill try to get the old guy(firesoul^^) to join us, would be nice.

OT: Golad Monk right?

zling · Dec 29, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

rush+enraging charge on a hammer warrior might solve your leader's problems

ashes · Dec 29, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Maybe but then again ill need flail for IAS - and 3/8 spots in ur bar is stances... But yea hammer warrior as 2nd war, might be the way to go

And then i also have KD in my build ;D

So something like:

Devastating, Crushing, Fierce Blow, Flail, Enrageing charge, Rush, [[Optional]], res??

Floski · Dec 29, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Devastating, Crushing, Fierce Blow, Flail, Enrageing charge, Rush, [[Optional]], res??

Take out fierce for hammer bash or heavy blow. And there's no optional slot,you need bull's. Every warrior needs bulls. But prepare for some rage, with more and more monks using aura of stab and balanced stance, you're going to be useless more than ever, especially when they stack that shit with blocks.

And it really still doesn't meet the req of having a self heal. I don't think it's possible unless you ditch the sig.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 29, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Isn't your other warrior running hammer? In which case you shouldn't run it, because 2 hammers is kind of redundant.

Greedy Gus · Dec 29, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The rit would need to be pretty incompetent to die to a warrior on that bar. You've got a single conditional KD, and one interrupt on a 15s recharge (assuming you don't take a res sig.) A lot of teams do put their least competent player on the flagrunner, but again, it feels like you're relying on the opponent screwing up pretty badly. In that situation, a competent flagger is just going to Warding himself, then call for a ranger and warrior to come back, snare you, and kill you.

Bull's Charge can be a great delaying mechanism, but that's not a bar I'd take if I wanted to solo competent flaggers in a reasonable amount of time.

Incompetent is a bit much, all it takes to kill a rit is to have adren built and for weapon of warding to be down for a small window. Land a KD, then unload sever/gash/hit, quarterbreak their save-me cast with savage, then final. It's pretty much an instagib if they are holding a flag, or had any damage already, or if you don't get unlucky with crits. I'd estimate at least 80-90% of flaggers will meet this circumstance fairly often. And weapon of warding is often overrated as immunity, remember half the bulls strike/charge hits go right through.

The best point about soloing a flagger you've already made, "in a reasonable amount of time". This is why almost no one is going to actually solo a good defensive flagger, communication is going to shorten your window of opportunity, and in almost all cases you want to just run away rather than stick around. It's nearly a silly topic to discuss, but someone specifically questioned that bar's ability to do so. The last two times I played the bulls charge guy, I soloed rust and thom on rit flaggers, who are surely not incompetent and were playing in solid guilds.

In conclusion, Squidget and I will just end up agreeing to disagree on the relative usefulness of shock, the effectiveness of dynamic splitting against top teams, and a few other subjects. I've merely been choosing to play a fun bar recently which happens to meet all of the OP's requirements and then some. I feel that there are already enough posters here to defend and promote the dominant strategies of the meta, I try to spend more words on other areas. But I think it's clear enough that the OP is fairly misguided, to keep spamming the core skills of a strong axe bar which don't really have anything to do with his guild leader's requirements. Post #31 in this thread is enough evidence that his guild leader should just let him run something easy/standard.

Neo-LD · Dec 29, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

For only being about a day late to the thread, I appear to have missed a great deal, but I'll do my best to catch up.

It often makes sense to take a build optimized for a very small set of forseen situations. In this case, build in question is a Shock Axe, and it is optimized for precisely two situations: 8v8 and skirmishes with a healer present. For those two situations, its pretty clear that Shock Axes vastly outperform any other template, very much including Gus' Bulls Charge warrior. Outside of those two situations, its fairly useless. Teams with Shock Axes will constantly rearrange their players to put their warriors in their optimal situations.

Now lets look at Gus' BC War. The situation where it shines would be a small skirmish - 1v1 or 2v2 skirmishes with no healers present, 1v1 or 2v1 against a defending ritualist, and stalling flaggers. Outside of those situations it not completely useless - its not quite as strong as a Shock Axe 8v8, but still quite capable, as it has an interrupt, great spike assist, a bulls function, and ~the same dps that just about every warrior shares. It only appears to be lacking the ability to set up 6s KDs, which while an important deficiency, certainly doesnt mean he cant kill anything.

So at this point we have two warrior bars that excel in different situations. If two good teams were to face eachother, one using Gus' BC war and the other not, then theres no reason why the teams would not constantly rearrange - both unwilling to face the other on the other's terms. These kind of matches are typically described as 'people just running around the map,' and are typically blamed on the flexible team (the one with the BC war). Personally I dont agree with that, they are just playing to their strengths, which is exactly what they should do, and exactly what the other team is doing.

For myself, I would rather have a Shock Axe, as I prefer the simpler playstyle which allows me easily tell where I need to be, and then focus on micro (my strength) rather than macro (my relative weakness). In most builds (that is, two warrior builds), I'd tend to agree that a Shock Axe would be superior, since the lack of damage at the stand whenever the BC war is gone doesnt allow strong plays to be made at both ends simultaenously. However, for 3 warrior builds like the one RIP uses (or should I say, Victrix used, since they copied+tweaked it from us after we beat them with it), then at least one copy of something like that BC war is essential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squidget

The rit would need to be pretty incompetent to die to a warrior on that bar. You've got a single conditional KD, and one interrupt on a 15s recharge.

Lol, tell that to Thom. :P

Tamuril elansar · Dec 29, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

eviscarate, body blow/executioners, frenzy, bull strike, res signet, rending touch, heal signet and either sprint or pious haste (pious will likely giving you Energy probs).